trying so hard not to make a mistake, he's a very passionate man. i get that part to be more in charge. that part would speak more. that means he's got to miss his prompter sand so forth and he'll still make mistakes, but i think people will appreciate mistakes because they feel raw and real as opposed to feeling like this guy lives in different world. >> thanks to tony robbins. "anderson cooper 360" starts now. erin, thanks. we begin tonight with breaking news in the trayvon martin killing. a "360" exclusive you won't see anywhere else. a new eyewitness to the shooting itself. a witness we have not heard from. what this witness saw and told police that terrible night now more than a month ago when george zimmerman shot and killed trayvon martin after pursuing him through his sanford, florida, gated community. tonight's other big development, new angles and more video of george zimmerman arriving at sanford police headquarters on that night. the time, 7:52. 35 minutes after police first got to the scene, and we've since learned it's about a 10-15

minute drive from the scene to the station. that means that george zimmerman haf only remained at the shooting site for 20 minutes or less, being treated, police say, for injuries to his nose and scalp. this is a second angle captured by police surveillance cameras of his arrival. in it, in the original view, you see zimmerman, hands cuffed behind his back, getting out of the patrol car. as some pointed out, he needs no assistance and doesn't appear to be injured or a traumatized man. some have launched on to this moment as a patrolman touches zimmerman's jacket, looks down at it, and wipes it on his pants. was it blood, dirt, something else? there's no way of knowing at this point. then there's the moment when an officer checks the back of zimmerman's head. zimmerman told police that trayvon martin punched him in the face and slammed his head, as zimmerman's father says, on to the sidewalk, on to concrete. doesn't look like a serious injury, but is there some evidence of some kind of head

injury? perhaps. there's a moment caught from this new angle in which zimmerman briefly leans against the wall before being taken to be questioned. is it evidence he's woozy from his injuries, or just the picture of somebody resting briefly after being hunched over, handcuffed in the back of a car? it's hard to say. what's especially hard to see in this tape is blood, either on zimmerman's shirt or jacket and there appears to be none on his shirt. one of the officers on the scene reports that zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head and was treated on the scene by paramedics. as we show you this new video that we've slowed down, of police leading zimmerman through the corridors, decide for yourself, what to make of it. what we don't yet know, did police photograph zimmerman to document his injuries, or will this grainy video be the best and only visual evidence to support or refute his claims of self-defense? what we do have tonight is a new set of eyes and a new voice. only on this program tonight, someone who saw the shooting and the aftermath. we're not disclosing this

person's identity and as you'll hear, we've distorted the person's voice. we spoke earlier. can you tell me what you saw and what you heard the night trayvon martin was killed? >> well, it would have been to starting with hearing voices, but not seeing, and then after the voices, opening a window and then seeing with two men or two people on the ground. one on top of each other. >> you say you heard voices. what made you pay attention to the voices? were they loud? were they argumentative? what kind of voices? >> yes. at first i heard the voices with my window closed. and pretty much back in that area, people walk their dogs. and you'll hear people talking. and you can hear them very clearly, even when they're not talking loud. soy thought it was rather loud, but i had just shut my window, because it had just started pouring down rain. and i thought, oh, my gosh,

who's out there walking their dog in the rain? and i didn't look, and then i went in and did something else and heard the loud voices again. and i thought, let me see who that is, and i opened up my window with the screen, and yes, it definitely was a very loud, predominant voice. as i kind of -- i couldn't hear the words, but it was like, okay, this is not a regular conversation. you know, this is someone aggressively, you know, yelling at someone. >> and how much time do you estimate had passed between the first time you heard the voices and the second time when you opened your window? >> well, i don't think it was that long, but i definitely would say that there was a gap of time, and the reason for that is because they kept on arguing, i probably would have opened the window the first time. >> i'm sorry. you say you went and did something else, that didn't take a long time? >> not at all. but there was a time of not hearing the voices. >> after you opened your window, after hearing the voices the second time, what did you

observe? what did you hear? >> i saw two men on the ground, one on top of each other, obviously thinking, okay, something really horrible was with happening. and at that point, not looking out the window, i heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then i heard another, as i described, an excruciating kind of yell. it didn't even sound like a help, it just sounded so painful. but i wasn't watching out the window during that. and then the next time i looked out the window, there were two men on the grass, one on top of each other. i kind of felt like that -- i couldn't see a lot of movement, it was very dark, but i felt like they were scuffling. and then i heard a gunshot. which, to me, were more like pops, than they were like a bang. >> you say "gunshots," plural,

was there more than one to your memory, or was there just one? >> well, the sound that i had from where i was walking, it was more like a pop, and it definitely was more than one pop noise. so i don't know if it was an echo or anything else, but it definitely made more than one pop. >> and i know you said it was dark. i don't want to ask you how far away you were, because i don't want to give any identifying sense of where you were, but were you able to observe who was on top, who was on bottom? were you able to see faces or any details of the people scuffling? >> no. just that it was dark. i mean, the only reason i can say, if i would have to say, who do you think it was, i would have to say only the larger man, because after the larger man got off, then there was a boy, that is obviously now dead, on the ground, facing down. >> what did you observe after

the shot? >> as i said, it was dark, but after the shot, obviously, someone, a man got up, and it was kind of like that period of him, i can't say i watched him get up, but maybe only within a couple of seconds or so, then he was walking towards where i was watching. and i could see him a little bit clearer. you see that it was a hispanic man, and he was, you know, he didn't appear hurt or anything else. he just kind of seemed very, you know, very worried or whatever. walked, like, on the sidewalk at that point, and his hand up to his forehead. and then another man came out. >> and that would be a police officer? >> no, actually -- >> so there was another person with a flashlight. >> yes. >> do you know -- did you actually see the gunshot?

were you looking at -- were you looking at the struggle when the shot went off, or were you not looking at the struggle when the shot went off? >> i was looking when the shot went off. >> so did the shot go off during a struggle? >> i can't say if there was a lot of movement or not. i mean, the first time i looked, i could see two men that kind of seemed like they were scuffling, but i couldn't see that clearly. i wouldn't say it was a lot of movement, when i heard the pop noise and the gunshots. >> did you see a flash? >> no. >> earlier, you had said, it was two people on the ground, i believe, when you first saw what you described as two people on each other. when the shot went off, were both people on the ground as well? >> yes. >> and one was still on top of the other? >> yes. >> did you see the person being shot? did you see -- the person you

now know as trayvon martin being shot? did you see him fulling back? >> when you're looking -- a person on top of each other, you can't really see the person underneath. >> so you -- so just so i'm clear, you believe the person who shot was on top? you believe the shooter was on top? >> i can't really say, because it was just so dark, but, i mean, i'm just saying, in your head, you're thinking, when you see -- when all of this is now a couple seconds later, you see that person that's alive walk away, you know, you obviously think, okay, mhe got up and he walked away, but the other person is still laying there face down. >> but it's not clear to you whether he was on top and got up after shooting trayvon martin, or if he was on the bottom of the struggle and shot and

trayvon martin fell or slid off him or he slid out from trayvon martin? you're not clear? >> i did not see any of that, like, who slid. just kind of from watching as they're both down there and hearing, watching the shot, then, you know, reminded me of the darkness, because there were roof lights on. i would just say a little bit of that time, from the time he got up, which isn't very much time, probably a couple of seconds, you know, then i saw him walking, saw it was a hispanic man. i mean, i'm just saying, you only think, okay, the boy, in my mind, i think that the boy's laying down, on the ground, face down. and the other person got up. you know, i'm thinking that it would be, you know, but i can't say for sure, because i didn't actually watch him get up. >> was the -- you saw,

essentially, two different struggles, you said. or two different -- you saw one initially and then you saw a second one. were they both in the exact same location? >> yes. >> and was that location grass or was it sidewalk or concrete? do you know? >> it was grass. >> it was grass. was there a sidewalk anywhere nearby here, concrete, or was this all on grass or ground? >> well, there was grass on both side with a sidewalk down the middle. but they were definitely closer to the area where it was all grass. >> and to your memory, george zimmerman, after the shooting, did he appear injured to you? did you see any blood or did you see him walking differently? >> not that i know how he walks, just that, you know, it was kind of slow, you're thinking, wow, i'm looking at the person who just shot someone. it was dark, you can see from your side view, that it was an

hispanic man. and no, as far as like him seeing any blood or anything else, no. just from the side view. >> i know this is very difficult for you to talk about, and i appreciate you taking the time to do that. thank you. much more on this story at cnn.com and more coming up in just a moment on what this tape, a police report, and all the rest have to say about what really happened the night george zimmerman shot trayvon martin and what should happen now. we'll get reaction from a martin family attorney. and also talk to former police officer, lou palumbo, along with our legal panel, mark geragos and marcia clarke. follow me on twitte twitter @andersoncooper. [ male announcer ] if you believe the mayan calendar,

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identity theft protection company that now monitors bank accounts for takeover fraud. lifelock: relentlessly protecting your identity. call 1-800-lifelock or go to lifelock.com today. our breaking news tonight, an eyewitness coming forward, talking only to "360" who saw the shooting of trayvon martin and the aftermath. what did you observe after the shot? >> like i said, it was dark, but after the shot, obviously, someone, a man, got up and it was kind of like that period of him, i can't say i actually watched him get up, but maybe within a couple seconds or so, then he was walking with towards where i was watching and i could see him a little bit clearer, and see that it was an hispanic man and he was, you know, he didn't appear hurt or anything

else, he just kind of seemed ve very, you know, very worried or whatever, walked on the sidewalk at that point, and his hand up to kind of his forehead. and another man came out with a flashlight. joining us now is police veteran lou palumbo, currently he's director of the private security firm, elite group limited, also, daryl parks, mike geragos, and marcia clark. daryl parks, i wonder as you listen to this new eyewitness's account of what happened, of what this person saw, what's your reaction? does it answer any questions for you, raise any new questions for you? >> it answers a lot of questions for me, anderson. it's very clear that this particular witness saw what happened, and in the early part of his statement, he clearly indicated that the person he saw on top was the gentleman who did the shooting. so it's rather clear that mr. zimmerman was the shooter. he saw him, although he has some parts he doesn't recall quite as

well, the first part of his statement that i see is that he saw trayvon shot on this very unfortunate night. the other part that really strikes out to me is he seems to not see any apparent injuries from this particular altercation that mr. zimmerman claims that he suffered. but thirdly. although this is my first time hearing this statement, it seems very clear that zimmerman's statement about trayvon following him back to the truck is totally untrue, because from this witness' statement, all of the interaction happened in one particular area. so i think mr. zimmerman is going to be arrested very, very soon. >> i should also just point out, we've altered this person's voice just at their request, because they don't want their identity known. mark geragos, when you listen to this account, does it raise anything new for you? >> well, first of all, anderson, it was a great direct examination by you, kudos to

you. second of all, this is exactly why prosecutors cringe. i bet you when you ask marcia about this, this should be a prosecutor's worst nightmare. there is so much fodder in there now for the defense to talk about, if she is indeed arrested, if zimmerman is arrested, for them to play around with now, i can't even tell you. you could spend 45 minutes to this witness and use it to your advantage if you're defending zimmerman. >> marcia, what about that? >> mark's right. the more we have witnesses being interviewed by non-police sources and interviewed under circumstances like this, the more opportunity there is to talk about inconsistencies, to get additional statements and to show the conflicts between them. this is a very, it seems to me, honest witness who is trying to tell you to the best of his ability what he saw, but any normal person is going to tell a story different ways at different times. you don't say it the same way every time. a defense attorney will have a field day with that. however, it was not entirely

clear to me, although i wanted it to be, that the person on top was the person who did the shooting. it may be very well so. that may be the case. i think we're going to need to do a lot more investigation. i think the gunshot residue on the bodies and on the clothing will tell you a lot more about the angle of the shot, which will be critical to this investigation. but the fact that george zimmerman stood up, walked away with no apparent difficulty, no apparent bleeding, seems to fly in the face of the indications in the police report that he was -- that he said his nose was broken, his head was beaten in. yes, there may have been some minor injuries due to the scuffle, but what's being described by this witness indicates that it was no major struggle. very likely the one that was crying for help was trayvon. very likely the one who was being pinned down was trayvon. and the fact that this witness said that trayvon martin was face down when george zimmerman stood up is another indication that it was george zimmerman who

did the attacking and that it was a scuffle initiated by him and ended by him. >> we should also point out, lou, that another eyewitness interviewed by other news organizations, local news, have said that that eyewitness, who's calling himself john or was referred to as john, says that he saw george zimmerman yelling out for help. but, again, trayvon martin's family insists that it's his voice on the tape calling out for help. what did you make of what this eyewitness said? zpl >> i have to agree with the first gentleman. i think for mr. zimmerman, it's quite problematic at this point. because, a, i would like to see the autopsy report on this young man. i would like to hear what zimmerman's accounting was when he discharged the weapon. did he tell the police he was on the top or did he tell them he was on the bottom? if he was on the bottom, where did he shoot the kid? was with it an abdominal hit? because that would be possibly consistent with pleading from the mouth. >> there should be forensic evidence for all of this. >> and i kind of spoke to this yesterday. where's the autopsy and where's the forensics on this?

i want to know the distance when the shot was fired, the angle of entry, the position of the body. this has a lot of questions here, but i think that this punches some holes in zimmerman's allegation that he was being beaten to the point where he felt that it was appropriate to use deadly physical force. >> the witness i talked to, mr. parks, said this was occurring on grass, on the ground, not on a sidewalk, so if somebody's head was being hit into the ground as mr. zimmerman indicated or his family has indicated, it wasn't on to a sidewalk, it was on to the grass, on to ground. mr. zimmerman's father gave an interview and i want to play what he says happened in the confrontation between his son and trayvon martin. >> at that point, he was punched in the nose. his nose was broken. and he was knocked to the concrete. trayvon martin got on top of him and just started beating him, in the face, in his nose, hitting

his head on the concrete. after nearly a minute of being beaten, george was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with trayvon on him into the grass. in doing so, his firearm was shown. trayvon martin said something to the effect of, you're going to die now or you're going to die tonight, something to that effect. he continued to beat george and at some point, george pulled his pistol and did what he did. >> so you're saying that trayvon martin verbally threatened his life? >> yes. >> mr. parks, it does seem to contradict what the witness we just talked to, that said that the altercation took place in the grass. whether that means the witness saw it at a later time or was

simply wrong or mr. zimmerman was wrong, what do you make of what he said? >> well, i think that he's clearly wrong. number one, the witness has clearly seen that they were in the grassy area, both altercations happened in the grassy area. but also, though, the real problem is that mr. zimmerman's father says that all of this happened on the walk. we now have pictures of mr. zimmerman walking into the police station, and you see no injuries that would have come from abrasions on a sidewalk. so clearly he's wrong. and this witness is right, because we don't see any injuries that would have come from a sidewalk had all of this great physical force happened on a sidewalk. >> mark geragos, do you put a lot of stock into the tapes now from the police station, where at least in those take place -- >> only if he wasn't treated at the scene. if he was treated at the scene and they cleaned him up at the scene, no, then it's not going to matter. someone's going to do a timeline

>> would that surprise you if there was blood on him? >> yes. all police officers know nowada nowadays with aids and all kinds of diseases that are transferred by blood, you have to glove up. you don't take any chances with that. i don't see how the police could have been handling him the way they were if he was as bloody as he should have been with a broken nose. anyone who's seen a broken nose is aware of the fact that the blood spurts. that leads to a lot of bleeding. you would have expected to see blood on the front of george zimmerman's shirt. head wounds are known to bleed profusely. you would have expected to see blood in his short collar, blood in many more places. and certainly the police officer

is being more careful. can i also say, anderson, that the statement made by, i believe it was george zimmerman's father that you just played, if that's correct, he says that when george zimmerman pulled out the gun, then trayvon martin said, "you're going to die tonight," who says that?! that make is no sense at all. you're unarmed, someone else pulls a gun, and your first response is to say, "you're going to die." that statement doesn't make a lot of sense logically and it does conflict with an eyewitness' statement who says it all happened on the grass. >> we've got to leave it there. "cnn presents" is going to present a special town hall, "beyond trayvon: race and justice in america" hosted by soledad o'brien tomorrow night at 8:00 and 10:00 p.m. eastern. another story we're following, growing outrage over racially divisive tactics promoted by a group that opposes same-sex marriage. we'll talk to jilian bond with a

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a group that opposes same-sex marriage is undergoing fire after being forced to make public confidential strategy memos. court officials in maine ordered the national organization for marriage to disclose internal memos that outline the group's plans for fighting same-sex marriage. one says, quote, these strategic goal of the project is to drive a wedge between gays and blacks, two key democratic constituencies. one campaign condemned the tactics described in the memos as ethnically divisive. the head of the national black justice organization also weighed in saying, "these documents expose nom for what it really is, a hate group determined to use african-american faith leaders as pawns to push their damaging agenda and as mouthpieces to

amplify that hatred." the national organization for marriage is not backing down. this week says it is proud of its, quote, strong record on minority partnerships. it also said, "gay marriage advocates have attempted to portray same-sex marriage as a civil right. gay marriage is not a civil right." julian bond is former chairman of the naccp, he's ban longtime defender of equality for all americans, a key figure in the civil rights movement. i talked to him about the memos. >> i want to read you from some of this internal memo from the national organization for marriage. they say, the strategic goal of the project is to drive a wedge between gays and blacks, two key democratic constituencies. they go on to say that they should recruit african-americans to oppose gay marriage, to serve as spokespeople and then provoke the gay marriage base into calling those spokespeople bigots, which would then drive a wedge. what do you make of this? >> it's one of the most cynical things i've ever heard of or ever seen spelled out in this

way. the idea that these people are just pawns that can be played, the black people who oppose gay marriage, and the black people who support gay marriage, just can be moved around like pieces on a chessboard, it's scary. >> scary? >> yeah. >> they released a statement that said, "gay marriage advocates have attempted to portray same-sex marriage as a civil right. gay marriage is not a civil right." you see the push for equal rights for gay and lesbian americans as a civil rights movement? >> very much so. >> as an extension of the civil rights movement. >> of course. it is exactly the same. it's a right that all americans have and no reason why gay and lesbian people ought not to have these rights too. these are universal rights. >> but to those who say, look, this has nothing to do with civil rights, and there are many african-americans who actually get offended by the comparison to the civil rights movement, among african-americans. >> we ought to be happy that other people, including gays and lesbians, and many other people have imitated the black movement for human rights. they've adopted our songs, we

ought to be happy. they've adopted our slogans, we ought to be happy. they've adopted the way in which we went about it, we ought to be happy about that. and when others imitate what we did to gain our rights, we ought to be first in line to say, you helped me, can i help you? >> when this came out in 2009, polling showed that only 32% of african-americans were in favor of same-sex marriage. there's a recent nbc news/"wall street journal" poll that showed 50% of african-americans are now in favor of it. do you feel like the tide of history is moving in this direction? >> absolutely. absolutely. as more and more people think, gee, that guy who sits next to me in church, eahe's gay, and h seems to be okay. the guy who works next know on the job, i think he's gay and he seems to be okay. so i know all these people who are gay and they're all right with me. >> do you think some people who, african-americans, who do not like the movement for equality being described as a civil right movement, do you think they feel that that in somehow takes away

from the struggle that african-americans -- >> wrongly so. wrongly so. but if they knew that a gay man put together the march in washington, and it wouldn't have been the success it was it were not for him, i think they'd feel different about it. if they knew that throughout the history for the struggle for civil rights, black and white and asian and latino gay people and lesbians participated and sacrificed alongside their black brothers and sisters, i think they'd feel differently about it. because this is not -- we don't have a patent on rights in this country. black people don't have a patent on fighting for civil rights. this is something all americans want to do and should do. and we ought to be proud that others have imitated us. >> it's interesting to me that in the past, you have not had a lot of straight people championing this cause, and yet you have received a lot of criticism for it. >> yes, i have. but i served in the civil right

movements beside black people and white people, and gay people and lesbian people, and i often thought to myself, these people are helping me, can i help them? jean i help them? and when the gay movement, which is an old movement in this country, became more and more prominent, and it became something that people like myself, straight people, could join in and participate, i was eager to play whatever part i could. because this is something, i think, important to all of us. i don't care if you're gay or straight, this is something you ought to be concerned about. >> just on another topic, i would just like to get your thought on the shooting of trayvon martin. what is your impression of what happened and of the debate that's -- >> i can only go by what i read in the papers or see on tv, that what seemed to happen is this police wannabe followed him, against the orders of the police, got out of his car, confronted him in some way. we don't know what happened then. but we do know that martin is dead. he's shot in the chest. he's killed. and i can't imagine what he might have done or could have done that would make that

happen, that would prompt that. that would make that excusable. >> julian bond, thank for being on. >> thank you. well, tonight, part three of our report on allegations of abuse at a small christian boarding school in montana. you'll meet an illinois mom who says her daughter was sent to the school against her wishes after a truant officer gave her daughter a form to sign. she was just 15 years old. >> she called me, she was crying, she said, mommy, i just made a mistake. >> what was her mistake? >> i asked her what happened, and she said, i just signed the papers to go to pine haven. ( whirring and crackling sounds ) man: assembly lines that fix themselves. the most innovative companies are doing things they never could before,

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tonight in our ungodley discipline series, the disturbing link between a truant officer in illinois and a small christian boarding school nearly 2,000 miles away. over the last few nights, we've told you allegations of abuse at the school. in part three of his report

tonight, gary tuchman exposes what amounts to a pipeline between five counties in illinois and pine haven christian children's ranch. dozens of kids from illinois have ended up at pine haven, steered there by the same truant officer. it happened to a teen named cassie against her mother's wishes. now, her mom wants to pull her out of pine haven, but can't. here's gary's report. >> reporter: paula bowen of only, illinois, is the mother of seven children. what is the name of your youngest daughter? >> cassie castiel. >> how old is cassie? >> she just turned 16. >> reporter: bowen says her daughter was raped by a relative and that cassie had tried to kill herself. >> she took a bottle of pills and she was placed in harsha -- i signed her into harsha. >> reporter: and harsha is?

>> a behavioral center in indiana. >> reporter: which isn't far from her home. but one day a truant officer made a trip to that center to visit cassie and recommend she travel to a different place. >> cassie called me, she was crying, she said, i just made a mistake. >> what was her mistake? >> i asked her what happened, and she says, i just signed the papers to go to pine haven. >> reporter: paula bowen says without her permission, her daughter was then whisked away, more than 1,800 miles to rural northern montana, to the pine haven christian children's ranch, and that's where we met her. >> reporter: what's your name? >> cassie. >> where you from? >> illinois. >> reporter: bob larson is the founder and a preacher at pine haven. >> the two biggest reasons can kids come is broken homes and they didn't have the normal home background and training with a dad and a mom and failing adoptions. >> reporter: paula bowen admits

she's had serious problems with her life, including imprisonment. but says she doesn't want her daughter at pine haven, because of allegations from former employees at the ranch, like dennis and dave bingham, that children were choked and hit in the name of god. >> the kids were being abused at pine haven. they were. no doubt about it. >> reporter: allegations backed by former students who say they were choked and hit not by bob larson, but by people who worked for bob larson. >> show me what they would do to you. >> up here, like this, then up against the wall, lift you off your feet. >> reporter: all was normal with the children during our visit to pine hache. but if paula was worried with what she heard, why not call cassie out? because she can't. an illinois judge signed a court order declaring it is in the best interest of the minor to remove the minor from the custody of the parent, guardian, or custodian. you said to these people, if you're send mig daughter away,

send her close to me, don't send her to the state of montana, which is a good way across the country. >> right. >> reporter: and they said? >> she signed the papers. >> reporter: did you say, she's a 15-year-old child? >> yes. they -- it's a binding contract. they held her to it. >> reporter: this is the truant officer. >> my job is to get kids that are missing school back in school and then intervene with court services, court-related services. >> reporter: it was charlie duke's idea for cassie to go to pine haven. why? he believes in the ranch and its religious philosophy. he also considers its founder, bob larson, a surrogate father. >> nothing in the state of illinois, nothing in the midwest, nothing in the entire region of the country comes close to pine haven. >> that is correct. >> reporter: this five-county area is very quiet, low-profile. but it has a most unusual export, children. you see, cassie is one of at least 29 children who over the years have been sent from this region to montana's pine haven

christian children's ranch. this area is a pipeline to pine haven. >> reporter: and charlie duke gets the approval of prosecutors and judges to make it happen, to a facility with abuse allegations and employees without any certification or licensing from the state of montana. >> i personally know teachers that are there, that are certified teachers from the state of illinois. >> but they're in montana. and the point being, these kids are troubled and they need counseling and there's no one trained to counsel them. does that bother you? >> i believe they get the counseling they need. when they have a nuclear family structure -- >> i understand they have that structure. but i'm asking you, just as a public servant here in illinois, you operate by rules and regulations of this state, do you think they should have licensed counselors at pine haven? >> i really feel like you're trying to trap me into saying something -- >> you can say yes or no. >> -- that i'm not even comfortable talking about. >> you can say yes or no or you don't know. >> i don't know. >> reporter: charlie duke says

he doesn't know about the abuse allegations. but we showed him a videotape of one of the current ranch employees, ned kent, telling us this. >> some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> reporter: what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to restrain them, but the nerve endings are real close -- >> show me. where on my body would you -- >> like right there. >> show me on my -- >> right there. >> ned kent and larson both say the so-called pressure points are no longer done, but charlie duke says he'd like to talk to larson about this. >> i would like to have the assurance that that was something in the past and not something that they would condone or use in the future. the truant officer says despite what cassie's mother told us, she approved her daughter going to pine haven. but when i asked if he went on his own to indiana to have the child sign a form to go there, he responded -- >> i cannot talk about it. it's a juvenile hearing. >> reporter: and for the same,

the judges and prosecutors won't comment to us at all. so cassie remains in montana. there are 40 children at pine haven. she is one of eight from the same part of illinois. and despite the allegations, charlie duke says if an illinois child leaves pine haven, he'll keep on recommending it. >> my opinion, it is the finest children's home that i've ever visited. >> gary win mean, it's such a fascinating report that you've done over the last three nights. what is the state of illinois and child welfare experts have to say about this? >> we've talked to child welfare experts who work for the state and work in private practice and they all tell us this is unorthodox and upsetting. they say it's standard procedure to take a kid if the kid has to leave their parents close to their home. but we also talked to the top legal official in the state, the attorney general of illinois, and this is what's fascinating. this has been going on for many years. the attorney general's office says they knew nothing about this whatsoever. they did some investigating, and they, too, say it was disturbing, but during their

investigation, they discovered that this is not their jurisdiction, that only the local state district attorneys can deal with the situation, so, therefore, the democrat is the attorney general in the state of illinois, lisa mattigan, says she can't do anything. >> and just so i'm clear, they have no trained counselors, certified counselors at this school to help troubled kids? >> what bob larson will tell us is he believes these people are good and they're trained and they know what they're doing. but the fact is, they are not licensed whatsoever. the counselors or the teachers, not licensed by the state of montana. it's unaccredited, unlicensed, and uncertified employees. >> that's even ignoring the abuse allegations, which you've documented in the previous nights. gary, appreciating the reporting. thanks. we'll continue to follow it. a terrifying scene as a family in colorado tried to escape a wildfire. their 13-year-old son caught the whole ordeal on cell phone video. we'll show you the video from the family here, next. [ male announcer ] lately, there's been a seismic shift

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>> daddy? >> we'll make it. we're going to be fine. >> we loaded up the car and the last thing i saw was, you know, this large flame shoot up, and we realized we had to go right then. and we turned that corner and went from daylight into pure darkness. >> where's mom?! what's she stopping for?! >> my wife was in the jeep in front of us and reason she stopped is she thought the road might not be possible. >> it's down there now. >> it was so dark. and i was fumbling for the lights and trying to get myself together. i think we were all in such a state that it was all happening very fast. i had to put on the brake to figure out that i could get my hand to the lights and turn those on. and i was also considering that we might not make it through and maybe we needed to turn around. and i was concerned we would

just get trapped inside. >> daddy? >> [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. >> whoa! there it is. right here. right here! >> it's okay. we're out! we're out. we're out. >> it's amazing how close those flames were. let's take a look at some of the other stories we're following tonight. aisha's back with the 360 news and business bulletin. >> bashar assad said today that his government will make every effort to assure the success of kofi annan's peace mission in syria. but as he made that statement, his forces once again shelled cities in syria. at least 60 people were killed and the united nations now says 1 million syrians are in need of humanitarian assistance. federal officials said today the flight data and cockpit voice recorders from jetblue flight 191 have been retrieved and will be analyzed. the information will be given to

the fbi. investigators are looking into the disruption aboard the las vegas-bound flight on tuesday, when crew and passengers said the captain acted erratically and had to be subdued. americans are growing increasingly worried about the spike in gas prices. a cnn/orc international poll released today shows that 7 in 10 americans say higher prices have impacted their families, and they point the blame, the finger of blame at the oil companies, not president obama. and the mega millions jackpot now stands at a record $540 million. that's the biggest jackpot ever for any lottery. the drawing is tomorrow night at 11:00 eastern. the jackpot may be even higher by then. tickets will be sold until 15 minutes before the drawing. anderson? >> asiah, thanks. coming up, thousands of girls are calling an 81-year-old woman in texas, trying to justin bieber. the ridiculist is next.

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time now for the ridiculist. and tonight we're adding justin bieber's twitter faux pas. a few weeks ago, an area code, except with a question mark for the last digit. that was enough to set scores of tween fingers a dialing. you could almost see the pink sparkly phone numbers furiously trying out all ten phone numbers. so you can see where this is going. for the past three weeks, at least two people in texas have been absolutely inundated with phone calls, including an 81-year-old great-grandmother in dallas. her name is dilcy, she's

awesome, and i think it's safe to say she is not one of justin bieber's 19 million twitter followers. >> just one after the other after the other. i'd hang up and it would ring. and i told one young lady, i said, do you know where you're calling. yes, i'm calling justin. i said, this is a texas extension. and i did tell one young lady, i said, you just don't realize, he has no interest in you whatsoever. >> sometimes dilcy answers the phones and gives the believers the what-for. that's what they call the justin bieber fans, right, believers? but other times she just lets the machine pick up. >> justin, oh, my god. call me back. i love you. justin, justin, justin, bieb, bieb, bieb, bieber. i love you. >> hi. i'm just looking for justin bieber. okay, bye. >> justin, i know you're there. call me! i love you so much. i'm sorry i called you so late, but i just got your number.

>> oh, my god, sorry, i called you so late, i just got your number. someone told dilcy she should just change her number, but she's had the same number since 1966, so instead, she changed her outgoing message. >> this is not justin bieber's phone number! please do not call again. >> i'm not sure that's going to do the trick, but dilcy thinks the calls will stop eventually. >> i think he's just a fly-by-night kid making oodles of money off of the people that are calling. >> i feel for you, dilcy, i really do. never before has there been such a perfect storm in which pop music somehow churns up so many unwanted phone calls, except for the great tommy two-tone incident of 1982. ♪ ♪ 867-9309 >> people in that area code still get phone calls from the